Do we have to wait for a shooting star?!

Do we have to wait for a shooting star to let a wish come true?

I made a wish : "Write a manual with a step by step explanation to set up a Dynamic Website with the Dynamic Suite and Form Builder a video with a PDF". No WA reaction!

The only reply I got is to come with specifics about the manuals. Then when I explain that my critics about the manuals are not specifics but the overall way they are written I get no reaction from WA.
So if you don't like the critics you just don't respond WA?!

And next time when you say that I have to look in my history for a support ticket please take care of the fact that something is there, because till now I did not find any ticket or explanation about this ticket support. But ok it's only 16 days ago that I purchased the Dynamic Suite.

Of course I understand that my wish can not be accomplished over night, but at least some reply would be nice!

David



Quote from: Office Guy-172461
WebAssist Community Expert
Many years ago I suggested a video tutorial showing how a Super Suite owner would go about creating an e-commerce site from start to finish. Of course it would just be an overview for time's sake, but just showing how the tools worked together would clear up a lot of confusion for people new to the tools.

This would also work as a sales tool. People are far more likely to buy something if they know what they're buying. There were only a few tools when I started with eCart so it was pretty easy to understand the purpose of the new tools when they came out. But now, someone is hit with dozens of options all at once and it can be overwhelming.
Reply With Quote

The wishlist forum is a forum for our customers to provide us input on what they would like to see in the future from WebAssist, whether that may be documentation, products, our website, etc. We really appreciate the threads in this forum as it is one of the mediums for us to figure out demand for a feature, tutorial, etc. All threads are read and make it to the appropriate department(s) for consideration and/or prioritization. If your thread isn't responded to in that forum, please know that we have still read it and appreciate the feedback.

As for the thread you are referring to, multiple departments did review the suggestions coming from all of the posts within it. The reason I asked for specifics is not because general feedback is not welcome, but because specifics are quicker fixes. Referring to all of our documentation as unclear or uncreative is more of a general note that we have to figure out how to continue to improve upon for the entire audience we are writing for. But I don't have a quick answer for that, which is why that thread trailed off. It is great that other people have appended to it and we're continuing to read those posts. Office Guy's suggestion, as you mention in this thread also, is an excellent one, and another one that is not being ignored. As we are making improvements to our product line, the timing for a tutorial like that needs to match up correctly. So again - great suggestion, just working on a strategy in-house.

We actually *do* like the critics and I would hope that is clear to our customers by the way that we respond to requests, not necessarily just in the forums, but in our offerings and within our products, as new features are added and bugs get fixed. Of course we would never get to every feature and every document requested in a timeline that may make everyone happy but we do listen to our customers and do our best to match our priorities with demand.

So if we did not update the last thread with a thank you, please know that we do thank you and your continual feedback on new wishes is appreciated.

Quote from Anna Robertson: "So again - great suggestion, just working on a strategy in-house."

Thanks for your reply Anna, Hope something will be done with the suggestions soon. It will save forum support time, creates a better atmosphere and attracts more people to buy Web Assist extensions.

David

I think a very big problem, here, is that WebAssist is paying insufficient attention, in its marketing, to the 'toolbox' concept, which is a clear part of the reason for its existence -- its raison d'etre. If I am a weekend car mechanic and I know exactly what I am doing, then it's of really great help to me if someone rents me space in a garage (i.e. I buy a WebAssist extension or sign up for the extension library). It helps me because I know what all those tools are for, and I know exactly what I'm doing. But if I don't know, and don't have any idea, then those tools are a complete mystery.

WebAssist is deliberately marketing its products at people who have absolutely no idea about php or programming, when in fact it is not quite so clear that this is a good idea because its toolbox concept is greatly questioned with that approach. This is particularly so when the only way WebAssist now has of offering any help to people is these totally unsatisfactory forums. These forums are fine when you have a clear idea of A, and B, and only need to know whether a reverse or an inverse sprocket wtench is better for getting you from A to B. But what if you don't even know that a sprocket wrench is required.

As but one small example ... why doesn't WebAssist take one small feature in one of its products ... say something in eCart. And then EXPLAIN in words of one syllable, exactly what coding its product is putting in the pages and why. So a WebAssist tutorial could take say a simple 'AddToCart' procedure and say do blah ... now have a look at the code in code view. You will see these lines. Now push the blah button. See ... our product has inserted these lines into the code and this is why. Now do blah and see blah. And that's because we now what the software to do this and that.

A couple of examples like that would then make it very clear to both WebAssist and its customers exactly what a toolbox is, and exactly what it is these products are trying to do. But at present ... WebAssist is inducing customers like me to believe that if they buy these products, then all their problems are going to be magically resolved just by using your wizards, which simply is not true ... and is not particularly helpful when only these forums are available to assist.

So I think that while WebAssist is doing all this in-house cogitating and research, it should go back to square one and think through to itself what it actually MEANS to be selling a set of toolboxes. What those toolboxes are trying to do is save people the trouble of writing code themselves ONCE THEY HAVE FIGURED OUT THAT THEY NEED A PARTICULAR PIECE OF CODE. But if you don't know that you need a particular piece of code in the first place, then it's all very different.

We are WebAssist. We sell toolboxes. You will get the best out of our products if you understand the nature of a toolbox. Here's an example of what we mean by a toolbox.

Done.

Now ... I am off to try to figure out how to get your products to do something I want done that it cannot do, which means figuring out the closest I can get with your products, and then sitting back with a PHP manual and trying to figure out how to insert my own code into yours so I can get something done. Thanks for your toolbox, but at least I have figured out what is going on here.

Bye now.

We appreciate the feedback.

What is it that you are trying to do? Perhaps I can provide some direction.

We concentrate a lot of time and resources to documentation and have a primary interest in making things easier. Unfortunately we don't always succeed, but we will keep trying to do better. If you continue to use our tools you will see they continually get both more functional and easier to use and in the meantime more and more documentation will become available.

This is the nature of our products and what they do. We take something that might not be possible for a new web developer and make it as easy as possible. We then write documentation describing what we have done. As we get feedback from our customers we try to make it easier and easier and write documentation to address the specific problems they are facing.

Adding an add to cart button can insert up to 3 distinct pieces of code onto your page.
1) It adds the cart object onto the very top of the page in the form of two include files.
There is one include file that is named after the cart object you created. It contains all of the information from that interface. Your columns, calculations, tax, shipping, discounts, etc. , and another definition file that contains functions defined to be used with the cart. The defintion file never changes except when you update ecart.

It will also add a line of code to repopulate the cart object created in the include file from the session or cookie depending on your cart settings. At that point you have an eCart object with your settings that is populated with an array of Items that persists through the session or cookie.

As part of the object it also adds a chunk of code to redirect to another page just above the <html>, but below all other server side code. This is added so that we can do multiple actions above and if you were to set multiple redirects it would still only redirect once after all of the actions complete because it uses this redirect code instead of redirecting inline where it might disrupt an overall process.

2) It adds a form, which is used to initiate the add to cart with a button and provides form fields to input values such as the quantity.

3) Then there is the add to cart code. It will be placed between the cart object defintion, and population code, but above the redirect code of the object. It will trigger off of the button submit event, so you will see it checks if $_POST['addtocartbuttonname'] is set. It then takes the values from the form as well as the values you set in the add to cart interface and adds an item to the session or cookie item array before setting the redirect value which takes you to the next page.

Originally Said By: Ray Borduin

  We appreciate the feedback.

What is it that you are trying to do? Perhaps I can provide some direction.  

I sell high ticket items and want to give my customers the ability to divide their payments up over two credit cards if they want to. There is a query trail in the eCart forum already, and I was also instructed to put it on the wishlist. You can check there.

Originally Said By: Ray Borduin

  We concentrate a lot of time and resources to documentation and have a primary interest in making things easier.  

OK. This is where there is a danger of things getting very silly, because this is not about what you ARE doing, but about what you are not doing. I saw a thread in which I thought I could usefully contribute and help someone else to make their point. Saying things like this .....

Originally Said By: Ray Borduin

  Unfortunately we don't always succeed, but we will keep trying to do better. If you continue to use our tools you will see they continually get both more functional and easier to use and in the meantime more and more documentation will become available.  

..... does not help in this situation. I am not trying to be perverse, but you cannot expect <insert> ME </insert> to sit here writing things endlessly. I have better things to do, and if people don't want to listen I'd rather go off and do those. I am trying to speak clearly and lucidly about a major difficulty that I have had with your products, and from the nature of the queries and frustrations I have observed on these forums, I am not the only one.

None of this ...

Originally Said By: Ray Borduin

  This is the nature of our products and what they do. We take something that might not be possible for a new web developer and make it as easy as possible. We then write documentation describing what we have done. As we get feedback from our customers we try to make it easier and easier and write documentation to address the specific problems they are facing.  

..... is particularly helpful in this situation, because you are just quoting the company line and not really listening to what I or the originator of this thread is trying to say.

Originally Said By: Ray Borduin

  Adding an add to cart button can insert up to 3 distinct pieces of code onto your page.  

OK. This is where things perhaps could get more interesting, and where I could perhaps begin to understand this 'toolset' mentality.

Originally Said By: Ray Borduin

  1) It adds the cart object onto the very top of the page in the form of two include files.
There is one include file that is named after the cart object you created. It contains all of the information from that interface. Your columns, calculations, tax, shipping, discounts, etc. , and another definition file that contains functions defined to be used with the cart. The defintion file never changes except when you update ecart.  

And where, exactly, do you tell people that?
Now ... what I am trying to say is ... why not also have a small demo page or follow-along-session that gives people a blank page in code view. You then ask the user to do blah. And you also tell them exactly what code it is going to insert, and why.

That way, they can build up something simple and functional that follows your company philosophy and also outlines exactly what is going on.

Originally Said By: Ray Borduin

  It will also add a line of code to repopulate the cart object created in the include file from the session or cookie depending on your cart settings. At that point you have an eCart object with your settings that is populated with an array of Items that persists through the session or cookie.  

Can you not just sit back and take a deep breath and just think to yourself a moment quite how much gobbledy-gook that is? REALLY!!!! And so then a poor user comes here, tries to explain that something is wrong, and they get zip by the way of help, because they cannot explain the problem clearly in ways that you can understand. Whereas ... if you had a demo or tutorial that took them step-by-step through what you were doing, they would at least be familiar with the concept that somewhere or other on the page that is troubling them, there might be a line or two of automatically inserted code they need to isolate.

Here's a very big problem, you see.
YOU know that. But then YOU designed these products.
We, many of your customers, do not know that.
Instead, we start finding that the only way that we can fix our problems -- because these forums are about as much help as a skimpy piece of dental floss to a haemorrhaging elephant -- is to go out and buy a PHP book and try to figure out what on earth is going on through those many lines of code.

Originally Said By: Ray Borduin

  As part of the object it also adds a chunk of code to redirect to another page just above the <html>, but below all other server side code. This is added so that we can do multiple actions above and if you were to set multiple redirects it would still only redirect once after all of the actions complete because it uses this redirect code instead of redirecting inline where it might disrupt an overall process.  

Can you not even begin to imagine how incredibly useless to me all of that is when I am in trouble and just want my software product to WORK. I bought it because there was an implied guarantee that it would work right off the shelf, and when it doesn't, I find out that it is actually just a toolbox, and that I am supposed to have a pretty shrewd idea what it is trying to do anyway, so that I can give it a helping hand if it starts going in the wrong direction. Well ... a helping hand is NOT the same as doing.

Originally Said By: Ray Borduin

  It will trigger off of the button submit event, so you will see it checks if $_POST['addtocartbuttonname'] is set.  

Please understand this. I had ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what $_POST or a superglobal variable was until I bought your products and was forced to find out. I am not trying to blow my trumpet here, but I am a post-graduate student from Oxford University so I have a few neurons that are functioning. I had to sit up day and night and go on a crash-programming course to try to figure out what on earth was going on in the pages of code your product was making so that I could use them. That was NOT why I bought them. I bought them because your materials gave the impression that everything would work just like that off the shelf. It doesn't. What WebAssist in fact wants is to create a partnership between me as the user and it as a company. WebAssist in fact wants me to have a fairly shrewd idea what I want to achieve in the first place so that it can save me a little bit of time in doing what I want to do anyway. That is just fine, and there is still a market for products of that nature. But that is NOT the impression I got from perusing your web site. If, on the other hand, you had warned me what was about to happen by showing me what it was you were trying to achieve and letting me see the code build up in the process, then it would have been different. I might well have bought the products anyway, because learning PHP is kind of fun in its own way, but I don't have the time. I have a business to run. I bought your products because they promised me that I would not have had to spend the time I have in fact spent trying to get them to work. All in all, the information I got has been valuable because it is mine and permanent. But I consider it in breach of the express and implied agreement displayed from those videos.

You are still making nice products and push comes to shove, I would probably have bought them anyway. But my expectations would have been different.

As the original poster tried to imply, what is awry here is a little bit of company philosophy. You are not selling catch-all tools for the woefully ignorant. You are selling toolboxes for those who know a little bit about what they are doing, would like to find out more, but in the mean time just want a bit of time saved. Nothing wrong with that, but don't pretend one thing when you are doing the other.

I hope I do not come over all aggravated because that is not my intention. I am just writing fast and I have better things to do, to be honest, than write things like this and I just want it done.

Bye now.

I would like to hark back to the original post and quote from office guy to reiterate the request for a tutorial in how all of your products integrate with each other from initial concept through to finished website. The individual extensions work great when I know what I am doing with them, but just to highlight the point being made, I bought your SuperSuite some years back, and although I looked at some extentions straight away, I didn't actually understand their place in the process of building a website. Because of this, I didn't actually use any of the products for something like eight months.

The first tool I did use was site assist; it didn't fit into my workflow and couldn't see how it would, so I ended up binning what had been produced. The next tool I used was data assist... all of a sudden I found the strength of a tool you make. I couldn't do without it now, but it took me eight months to realise it! Universal email is another tool I took a while to figure out how to implement. The same with iRite.

Validation tool kit... tried it, but just don't get it and how it works with pages I have created, so it is redundant along with site assist. I could go on, but you get the point.

What would be good is to see how you guys would take something along the lines of PowerStore and start from scratch with it and then construct it using your tools. The individual tutorials are great if you know what you're doing with each tool, but if like me you don't understand where and when to implement tools, they aren't in my case going to get used, and in other cases they aren't going to get purchased.

You could create an overview video tutorial of the process showing where each tool is used and why (start with tool A, then use tool B, then use tool C and so on). If the user needs deeper clarification of any tool, they then visit the already existing videos to gain a deeper understanding of how to implement it.

For example; double opt in email verification... I had a telephone conversation with one of your tech guys and he said use Universal Email, Data Assist and Security Assist. I am still trying to figure out how to do it... but that's a question I will post in another thread.

I'm not a novice, but I am no expert either. I have built some huge sites with thousands of visitors, but not by using your tools. The silly thing is, you have made development a lot easier, but in some instances, it's not clear how to use your tool, and so it doesn't get used or even purchased. I have all of these wonderful tools, but I just don't use half of them because I don't understand where and when to use them. You might understand them because you recognised a need for them to be built.

Anyway, here's hoping...

Amazing! I returned here to see if anything had happened to this thread, and lo and behold ... it is ALIVE!!!

Originally Said By: mrs

  I would like to hark back to the original post and quote from office guy to reiterate the request for a tutorial in how all of your products integrate with each other from initial concept through to finished website.  

I agree with the objective ... but am not so sure that this is the way to achieve that objective ... see under.

Originally Said By: mrs

    

The individual extensions work great when I know what I am doing with them... [/QUOTE]
Exactly.

Originally Said By: mrs

  ... but just to highlight the point being made, I bought your SuperSuite some years back, and although I looked at some extentions straight away, I didn't actually understand their place in the process of building a website. Because of this, I didn't actually use any of the products for something like eight months.  

My experience exactly. Goes back to the 'toolbox' idea IMHO. No point in having a bunch of tools when you have no idea what they are, or what they can do.

Originally Said By: mrs

  The next tool I used was data assist... all of a sudden I found the strength of a tool you make.  

I again agree. And just like you ....

Originally Said By: mrs

  I couldn't do without it now, but it took me eight months to realise it! Universal email is another tool I took a while to figure out how to implement. The same with iRite.  

Originally Said By: mrs

  Validation tool kit... tried it, but just don't get it and how it works with pages I have created, so it is redundant along with site assist.  

Here we differ. In the case of Validation Toolkit, I worked along with the tutorials, and I found the way in which the tutorials provided you with snippets all ready to use (just double click it in) invaluable. I did not find the tutorial particularly well-written because it was confusing to follow in places, but the singular virtue was that WebAssist had provided you with everything you needed to work through it, so it was just a case of reading it about half a dozen times over until gradually the concepts sunk in. Now, I again wouldn't do without it, although I find that it gets a bit irritating and loses track of itself when you are constantly adding and deleting fields, or changing from one type to another. In such a case it is good to keep a template backup in case you have to start over again from a particular point, and then just redo the validations.

Originally Said By: mrs

  What would be good is to see how you guys would take something along the lines of PowerStore and start from scratch with it and then construct it using your tools.  

I agree that a series of tutorials concentrating on a set of discrete JOBS would be excellent, but I think that something along the lines of PowerStore is unnecessarily complex.

Originally Said By: mrs

  The individual tutorials are great if you know what you're doing with each tool ...  

That's the point. As long as you know what you are doing.

Originally Said By: mrs

  ... but if like me you don't understand where and when to implement tools, they aren't in my case going to get used, and in other cases they aren't going to get purchased.  

Agreed. To express it in my toolbox language, you can't begin to see the usefulness of the tools when you can't imagine yourself using them, or see discrete and specific situations in which they might be used.

Originally Said By: mrs

  You could create an overview video tutorial of the process showing where each tool is used and why (start with tool A, then use tool B, then use tool C and so  

Here is where this poster and I begin to differ on a remedy.

Originally Said By: mrs

  For example; double opt in email verification... I had a telephone conversation with one of your tech guys and he said use Universal Email, Data Assist and Security Assist. I am still trying to figure out how to do it... but that's a question I will post in another thread.  

Well ... I think the point here is that this is just a string of several different JOBS, all strung together.

Originally Said By: mrs

  I'm not a novice, but I am no expert either.  

I agree with this Poster ... and I think that WebAssist could do a better job of servicing and selling products to people like me and he.

Originally Said By: mrs

  The silly thing is, you have made development a lot easier, but in some instances, it's not clear how to use your tool, and so it doesn't get used or even purchased.  

Agreed.

Originally Said By: mrs

  I have all of these wonderful tools, but I just don't use half of them because I don't understand where and when to use them. You might understand them because you recognised a need for them to be built.  

Totally agreed. And here is what I think WebAssist should do. It's a question of teaching. I cannot find it now, but I once worked through a tutorial I found on the web on a site intended for women who are setting up their own businesses. The tutorial taught some basic PHP by working the student through what it took to upload some files into a database, arranging them in an array, and then displaying a picture file depending on which month it is.

When I purchased FileAssist, I immediately thought what a breeze that tutorial would have been if I had had FileAssist, because many of the procedures that tutorial took us through would have been unnecessary. FileAssist would have done them all. So ... that would be an excellent JOBS tutorial, demonstrating the power of this particular utility. You provide the person with the images and the database. The person then boots up Dreamweaver. And they work through the tutorial designed to do exactly what that tutorial did. But WebAssist also provides a running commentary explaining roughly what code is being implanted and why, and then a short while later ... boom. The person has learned something very fundamental, and you have also exhibited the power of this particular tool.

Or ... DataAssist. You obviously have no clue how intimading the whole procedures can be. So ... take it step by step. We are going to do this and then have DataAssist put some data in the Database. Now ... we are going to extract that data and put it over there and display it in that way. And then ... we are going to allow someone who has logged in to change their preferences which means that it is goiing to update in this way. And again, you give an idea for what code is being implanted and why. And so focussing on DataAssist alone, one starts to see the power of the tool.

Then ... same for SecurityAssist. Instead of just selling say the ContactFormSolution, why not take people in tutorial how some of the parts are built up? Because you pretty much have to pray and hope it all makes sense when you buy the solution, in order to make it work. But ... wouldn't it show off the power of your tools more if you provided a tutorial that divided it into bits and ... well ... you've got the idea and I've spent enough time.

What WebAssist should do is take each of those tools, and provide discrete tutorials showing those tools in action and how they do what they do, so that gradually people can learn to integrate them into their workflow. One a person has mastered an individual tool and got it to do some specific jobs, they can begin to see how entire projects can be constructed from putting together a whole string of different jobs, each of which they have individually mastered.

Which is pretty much how PowerStore is put together.

Bye again. Probably won't be back this time. I think I've now given you guys enough of my time ... and quite enough of my money. I own most of the things you make.

We really appreciate all of the feedback. Our documentation team is reading this thread and taking notes.

It is difficult to do combined tutorials because we have something like 20 products all of which could be used together... however we update each of those products approximately once every 2 years (sometimes more or less depending on the product).

If we did a combined tutorial, then we would have to update that tutorial 20 times a year to keep up with product updates, and since some of our users don't upgrade would need different versions depending on the version of products you own.

This is why we concentrate on documenting each tool separately. We are actually in the middle of an effort to address that problem. We will be consolidating products so that you don't need to own multiple products to get a complex site done. This will also allow us to document them all together, since we sold them together we can be sure that all of the products are updated.

Really what we like to do is figure out where you are getting stuck and instead of documenting our way around it, improve the tools so that the issue goes away and documentation isn't needed. We have tons of documentation people never read or look at. Very few people read the help. We know that to make you successful we really need to improve the tools and not just the documentation.

We really appreciate the feedback and will use it to not only improve the documentation but the tools themselves to make it easier to be successful out the gate without documentation.

Originally Said By: Ray Borduin

  It is difficult to do combined tutorials ...  

In my opinion, it is better to thoroughly understand each tool. Experience will then show how to use them together to resolve practical issues, as I have experienced.

Originally Said By: Ray Borduin

  If we did a combined tutorial ...  

IMO, enabling people to become better acquainted with each separate tool is better.

Originally Said By: Ray Borduin

  This is why we concentrate on documenting each tool separately.  

SIGH. This is where things start to go round in circles. Documenting HOW to use DataAssist does not assist me when I have no clue what it is capable of in the first place. "Here is a one-page tutorial to show you how to insert a record in a table using DataAssist. Push this button ... and see ... here is the code that enables you to do this". "Here is a one-page tutorial to show you how to update a table with DataAssist. See that code there ... that is the code responsible for inserting it in the database". A backbone like that will not change from version to version, but it still starts indicating the possibilities inherent in that tool.

Originally Said By: Ray Borduin

  We are actually in the middle of an effort to address that problem. We will be consolidating products so that you don't need to own multiple products to get a complex site done.  

That highlights the difference in philosophy and approach. I don't think I need say more than that.

Originally Said By: Ray Borduin

  This will also allow us to document them all together, since we sold them together we can be sure that all of the products are updated.  

Updated to do what? Keep me even more in ignorance about what is happening, so when I run into a problem I get even less help on these forums?

Originally Said By: Ray Borduin

  Really what we like to do is figure out where you are getting stuck ...  

OK. Then try to hear me clearly, along with the person who started this thread and the other individual who has contributed to it.

Where we are getting stuck is imagining what these tools are supposed to do in the first place, and then figuring out how to get them to do those things.

Originally Said By: Ray Borduin

  We have tons of documentation people never read or look at. Very few people read the help.  

I KNOW THAT. But please ... this thread is peopled by users who HAVE read your documentation and who are trying to point out that there is a very specific way in which it is not meeting their needs, and is in fact adding to a frustration.

Originally Said By: Ray Borduin

  We know that to make you successful we really need to improve the tools and not just the documentation.  

NO, no, no no. In order to make me successful, and in order for me to think that you really ARE providing a great service, you also need to improve me as a user. What I would like to be able to do is to say to someone ... I became a better more capable at doing what I do because of WebAssist, and not just because of their products.

At the moment, what I say is that I became a better user because of the hard work I did by myself. WebAssist did not do a great deal, actually, to help me get there. I knew that one day I would understand what those tools are really capable of, but I did NOT learn that from WebAssist. I learned that elsewhere.

I am grateful that WebAssist exists so I can use its products. But I don't think I am going to get anywhere in trying to make WebAssist a better company. I have honestly done my best, however. Nothing else I can do but that.

Looking forward to your updated products. I dare say I shall buy them, but it's a shame that I am letting you getting away with just PRESUMING that.

Bye now.